Questions Of Perception
First, a warning. This is going to be a contentious post. It also is a blog with more questions than answers. So please don't expect a tidy resolution to the things I raise in this. And feel free to comment and add your contribution!
If you follow my comments section (in the next column, under the pretty pictures) then you can view what readers have said about my posts. Or on occasion, on other comments made by other readers. It makes fascinating reading, and my recent post on Election entitled 'Hand-Picked' generated much opinion. This is no bad thing, as I love it when people disagree with me - providing it is done with both intelligence and grace. Otherwise our responses just generate more heat than light.
I enjoyed reading comments arguing against my position on Election, and the resulting discussion on how we interpret the Bible. I've been pondering this myself recently, trying to decide what I think about how we know what the Bible means when we read it.
Anyone who knows anything about Christianity will know there are many different denominations. These different church groupings have distinct beliefs, doctrines or theologies that differ to other denominations. They can turn to different Bible passages to explain their stand on various practices or views. Yet across the road, a different group of churches will do things very differently, justifying their methodology through different Bible verses.
This throws up a fascinating question - why do so many godly, intelligent people hold such a wide range of contradictory views and practices, all based out from the same document?
This also applies historically. Christian Orthodoxy ("correct belief or opinion") is itself an interesting term - who decides what is orthodox and essentially correct, and what isn't? And why?
When it comes to Christian Orthopraxy ("correct practice") history shows us how the church has done different things and changed and evolved. Music style, preaching style, communion, church discipline, baptism, church leadership and structure have all changed over the centuries. Why?
In many cases, the 21st Century church is very different to the 18th Century church, which is in turn different to the 15th Century Church, and so on all the way back to the Early Church Fathers. What things have brought about these changes? Are all the changes for the best? Have we found better ways of doing things? What things have informed these changes? A huge influence in these things will be the ever changing human culture. Is it wise, right and shrewd for culture to influence practice, or is it foolish, dangerous and compromising?
In my own 'denomination', we have writers and theologians that are recommended by our leaders than other writers. Godly, intelligent, gifted experienced leaders who have taught, mentored and inspired me have recommended such writers as Charles Spurgeon, Wayne Grudem, John Piper and Martyn Lloyd-Jones to name but a few. But interestingly, even with these recommended writers I noticed we (meaning some of my teachers) picked and chose what they agreed and disagreed with. And that in itself is fine, as it is good to challenge and know why you believe what you believe. But where we disagreeing with these writers simply because we didn't like what they were saying? Were we uncomfortable with their exegesis and orthopraxy - and in some cases, orthodoxy - and so just cherry picked our theology?
For example, Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology was held up as the one of the best theology textbooks for us to own and make use of, but I was taught that we don't agree with his view on apostles for today. John Piper's books and sermons were endorsed across the board by different lecturers, yet his views on church government and spiritual gifts were certainly at odds with 'our' taught view. Yet Grudem and Piper are clearly godly, anointed and intelligent men. So why the clear difference of opinion?
Does this mean that ultimately all biblical exegesis (extracting from the text what it means) is subjective? Is it all a matter of opinion? That is a terrifying question. If the answer is yes, then none of us can teach the scriptures with any authority, and there no longer would be such a thing as Liberal Theology - as anything could be justified by finding the right text in the Bible.
I've often used that phrase "the Bible says...." But in reality, I'm actually saying "my interpretation of the Bible says..." There is a massive difference. Anyone who is a Christian claims to be biblical. But why the diversity and difference?
Are tattoo's biblical and right? Leviticus 19:28 has been quoted to me as saying they are wrong. Revelation 19:16 has been used to support the opposite view. Which is right?
What about the infamous passage in 1 Corinthians 14:34 about women remaining silent in church? Is that universally followed? If not, why not?
If plastic surgery or body modification is wrong because it is done out of pride or vanity, what about dying our hair colour as it gets grey?
What about the current hot potato that is the role of women in church leadership. There are two sides in this debate, both who claim to be biblical. Who is right?
For each of the above issues, I have my views that I believe are biblically informed and I therefore would explain why. But I also recognise other people have another view, which to them is just as biblically informed. And they could consider my views not biblically informed. Which of us is right? And why is that person right and the other not?
Rob Bell, in his book Velvet Elvis writes a fascinating thing. He writes;
"Somebody recently told me, "As long as you teach the Bible, I have no problem with you".... What that person was really saying is, "As long as you teach my version of the Bible, I have no problem with you."
Bell goes on to say;
"Where does one go in trying to make sense of what the Bible even is, let alone what it says?.... It has to be interpreted. And if it isn't interpreted, then it can't be put into action. So if we are serious about following God, then we have to interpret the Bible. It is not possible to simply do what the Bible says. We must first make decisions about what it means at this time, in this place, for these people."
I wonder if the principles Paul writes about in 1 Corinthians regarding food sacrificed to idols apply wider than we think. On one side of the fence, one party argued "food consecrated to idols could be influenced by demons and therefore Christians should keep away from it." A totally valid and logical position. The other camp argued "idols are nothing, so they have no power over Christians. So don't worry about it." Again, another logical position. How did Paul handle this debate? He appealed to... wait for it.... conscience!
Rather than use Bible Bullet proof-texts to spiral endless debates about things, would it be better for me to prayerfully consider both sides of the debate, do some prayerful study and research, ask some godly wiser people and come to a prayerful, considered, informed position that sits right with my conscience? I am so aware how subjective and self-centred that sounds, but as we mature spiritually our consciences are sanctified as part of that process. Yet Paul still appeals to the principle of people not going against their consciences.
John's Gospel records Jesus talking about the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of Truth who would guide us into all truth. In the process of prayerful pondering, surely we can trust God to guide us? But this does have an inherent danger - we could get jumpy when people aren't "guided" to agree with us!
I notice that all the contentious issues that are majorly debated in the main Church not only today, but also historically, have rarely been about issues of central importance to foundational truths. I'm more talking about issues with two sides claiming biblical support in a biblical doctrine yet seeing it in different ways. Scripturally, some things seem clear to me- other than certain elements within them, none of the major Christian denominations question the deity of Jesus, the truth of the Bible, the need for church or mission for example. Of course, elements within them might, but as a whole they wouldn't. Other, almost secondary issues might be contended. Thing is, we need to decide for ourselves those things and what we consider primary and secondary importance.
By asking these questions, have I become liberal and can no longer be considered Evangelical? I don't think that's correct. But some of you might think I have sold out! I still believe wholeheartedly in the inspiration, inerrancy, sufficiency and authority of scripture. But I am questioning how, as individuals, we arrive at our views. And how we deal with other brothers and sisters who hold different and even contradictory views.
Yes, the Spirit guides us in all truth. That in itself is an interesting thing when we see many of us hold different views! The Holy Spirit does not belong to the just to the Charismatic or Pentecostal church. Interestingly enough, many of the world class theologians who have lived weren't Charismatic! What does that say to us Charismatic's?! Its a provocation to me, certainly.
Jesus said "Come to Me". As Christians, we weren't meant to have a relationship with a book, or even through a book! We were made to commune with the Author. But this doesn't detract from the value of the Bible - indeed, it actually heightens it! God has chosen to express and reveal himself through its words. In the Bible, He shows us His heart and His mind in things. The book informs us, but also pushes us to Him. We get into problems when we know the writings better than we know the Writer. Then we commit Bibliolatry - the Bible becomes our idol. I think it's possible to study and learn the Bible so well, yet miss its message - which as Jesus told the Pharisees, is to "point us towards Him."
Ecclesiastes tells us that "a three strand cord isn't easily broken." A three strand cord could be me, my Bible and the Holy Spirit. Without the Spirit, I'll become legalistic in my biblical proof-text approach. Without the Bible, I'll become unstable and without foundations in my Christian walk.
This interwoven cord also reminds me that God is interested in intimacy with me - the journey of discovering more about Him through the Bible as I prayerfully read it.
I can get concerned about all the difficult passages, stories, texts and debates that are circling around me but the reality is this: when I walk through scripture with Him, He walks with me through it. And He narrates every step of the way.
Currently listening to: The Brunettes - Brunettes Against Bubblegum Youth from Structure & Cosmetics

18 Comments:
As you have probably realised Revelation 19:16 is, shall we say, extremely unlikely to have any connection to the issue of tattoos.
I don't know about you, but I really do struggle with the picture of Jesus having to visit a Tattooist to get His name written on His thigh and of course if He did not visit a Tattooist then He does not have a tattoo.
I will comment on the rest of the post later.
OK..some honesty from me...I'm not going to read all that cos its like really long and I probably won't understand it anyway. Thought you might appreciate a comment even if it is someone telling you they won't read your post :P
Imagine that though.
"Yeah, what do you want?"
"Ummm... Could I have a tatoo on my thigh please?"
"Yeah. What's it gonna say?"
"Well.. I was thinking about 'Jesus Christ, King of Kings, Lord of Lords'"
"I can do 'Mother' with a heart. Will that do?"
".... It's not quite what I had in mind.... Don't worry, I'll get my dad to do it instead."
I love the way I pour out my thoughts on an important subject, and one person admits they won't read it, and the comments digress down the tattoo route!
I actually do think its funny though. I love you guys!
Hi Ant, well I did read your post and if i'm honest got a little lost along the way. For me, my faith is simple and i talk to God the only way i can and it's just a conversation just like i would with any of my friends. I think sometimes we get too bogged down with the technicalites and miss the simple things - this of course is just my opinion. I just have to believe that God loves me :)
Rev xxx
I'm kinda with Nat in this one but thinking about it, that's ok. We're all unique and have different strength and weaknesses. What I really love about reading friends blogs is that if I were presented with any one entry without knowing who wrote it, it would almost always be pretty easy to guess the author from the content and prose.
As far as comments go, its interesting (to me) seeing the variance you get from different sites. Myspace, seems generally aimed at a younger 'audience' and comments don't often raise to more than "yur haaaaawt!" or "niiiice profile!!!!!" written by people with ƒŮŊΚεε sσŮηdιŊĜ ΝΛΜΣz. YouTube commonly just has a string of insults detailing how gay/retarded/etc. people find each other. Nice.
That's what I like about blogs in that it takes a lot more effort to actually read what someone's written rather than just throwing sheep at each other.
Anyway, I've lost the thread of what I was saying. Hmph.
I shall be difficult and leave a proper comment.
Let's be very clear about this: eating, or not eating, meats offered to idols was not a choice of conscience for the early Christians. In Acts 15:28-29 and Acts 21:25, it is very clear that everyone, Jew or Gentile, is to abstain from eating meats offered to idols. If you read further in Corinthians to 1 Corinthians 10, you will see that in verses 19-21 the implication seems to be that eating meat offered to idols is indeed wrong. And further on, in verses 27-28 the implication seems to be that if you know the meat has been offered to idols you should not eat it.
Also, the conscience really isn't a good judge of whether things are right or wrong; the heart is deceitful and wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). It doesn’t matter whether we’re Christians or not, the basic principle is the same.
Finally, the Bible is not subjective; the best way to find out what the Bible says is to read it as it is, without imposing things like "what does that mean for me in my culture?" onto it. God's Word is timeless, because God himself is unchanging. Ideally, people should arrive at their views by comparing Scripture with Scripture. And I would argue that it is possible to simply do what the Bible says (yes, I know that’s an issue with something you quoted, not something you said). Why shouldn’t it be? We follow it directly in what it specifies, and take away the general principles to apply them when the Bible doesn’t specify what should be done.
And that's plenty of food for thought, so I'll stop now.
Nossie, we all left "proper" comments.
"the best way to find out what the Bible says is to read it as it is, without imposing things like "what does that mean for me in my culture?" onto it."
"We follow it directly in what it specifies, and take away the general principles to apply them when the Bible doesn’t specify what should be done."
You've kind of broken your own rule already there.
That is to say: taking away general principles and applying them to things the bible doesn't specify about could be summed up as "seeing what the bible means in our culture".
I want to comment in order to laugh at Benny's comment! He must have written that last night when he was in that hilarious mood... Hmmm!
I read half of your post Ant, but I couldn't focus on it properly and got a bit confused. So I shall aim to read the whole thing soon!
Oops. Sorry, Benny. What I meant was that I'd leave a comment disagreeing with some things Ant said. Of course, I should have said that in the first place and I'm sorry if it came across in a way that it wasn't meant; certainly it was not my intention to make others think that their comments were unacceptable, as I actually enjoyed reading everyone else's comments.
Tobiwan—of course it could. But seeing what the Bible means in our culture could, theoretically, mean more than just taking general principles and applying them to things the Bible doesn't specifically mention.
The expression 'seeing what the Bible means in our culture' is a statement people might use to justify mixing worldliness with Christianity, and that's why I don't particularly like it. After all, if you look at today's culture it is bad. And it's not good enough just to aim to not be as bad as the world. The aim is supposed to be holiness, surely?
I definitely think women should be silent at church. Except me, obviously.
Who is the other Natalie?!
me
Interesting points Nossie, although I know of some who would interpret the Jeremiah passage of the heart being deceitful and wicked being irrelevant to Christians, as we have been born again and made into a new creation - and sanctification is the ongoing process of our hearts continued refining. Therefore conscience - which Romans tells us is God-given - is therefore an acceptable moral guide, along as it is informed by the Word and Spirit.
Could this be what God meant when he says in Jeremiah 31:33 that He would make a new covenant with His people, and put His law within them, and write it on their hearts?
hmm, proverbs states that wisdom and knowledge come from God. Therefore as your conscience gives you a form of knowledge as to good and evil, one could consider it to be a good moral guide.
apologies for the fact i too did not manage to read the entirety of your post. however, when you discuss areas of the bible that could appear in contradicting terms i think you have to use discretion within the situation to wark out what to do. Prayer is also a good thing.
So far as election and such topics go i hold the view that unless God opens your eyes to particular things, it is a knowledge that unleast until we die and will find out (after much nudging and saying 'go on you ask him') we shall not know for certain.
different denominations interpret the bible differently take issues such as transubstantiation, my friend who is a catholic read me a very convincing scripture which could easily be interpreted as that the other day. within out denomination people will interpret thing differently.
It does say that 'faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see'and i for one have faith that God can do anything and has the power to do anything through and with us so the best thing you can do is have faith that God will save those you care about.
:) SMILE :)
To partly answer your question -
"why do so many godly, intelligent people hold such a wide range of contradictory views and practices, all based out from the same document?"
Some of the divisions are because of a desire to impose personal preferences on the Bible.
A quick example would be in regard to baptism by full immersion.
That form of baptism is what the Bible explicitly teaches - ie the word 'baptizo' relates to the process of dyeing cloth. Now, just to state the obvious, you will not dye a piece of cloth by splashing it with a few drops of dye. You have to completely immerse the cloth in the dye. There are other uses of this particular word, but they all infer complete immersion.
Some do not agree, despite the teaching being clear, and it fuels division.
Catholicism is more OT based in its practices and promotes idolatry of Mary, the Apostles (well, their statues), also Mary as intercessor even though the Bible clearly states that the role is exclusive to Jesus.
God teaches that we all as Christians have the right to approach Him direct, Catholicism says that you have to go through a priest. The list goes on and on.
Some splits over minor issues are more about power plays by individuals than Biblical teaching, although they try to say it is all about the Bible.
If you examine some splits you will be amazed at what the division was about, other times you will be amazed that some waited as long as they did to split away.
You only have to look at the advance of acceptance of homosexual behaviour in certain denominations in America, and how long it had been going on, before those who except the teaching of the Bible that it is against the will of God finally decided that enough was enough and split away from the 'parent' body.
Here in the UK we are approaching the same scenario in the so called Church of England. That particular split should have happened years ago.
The Bible is a much abused book and nearly all of the erroneous use is fairly obvious if people actually open it and study it for what it says as opposed to what they want to find in it.
In many cases it is not that the Bible is hard to understand, it is that we have a hard time excepting what the Bible is telling us.
Am I claiming to have it all down pat and have nothing left to learn from scripture......NO.....if I live for another 400 years I would still be plumbing the depths of Gods amazing Word, but I am saying that a lot of this division 'stuff' (technical term there) is not really so hard to see in a clear light.
Thanks Glenn, I agree with a lot of what you say.
However, coming back to the point of my original post, what would you say about other less clear issues where both sides have a scriptural position where they stand from, yet these positions are different?
How would you suggest reconciling or discerning with them?
Thanks Ant; I would say "are they really 'less clear' in the first place".
If you replace 'less clear' with either 'self centred' or 'petty' then we would probably be nearer the mark.
Now, we could probably come up with wording that isn't so in your face, but it would still boil down to the same thing in the end.
If the split has happened over something none central then it will , in 99% of cases, fit somewhere in the couple of options I listed above. In other words those concerned were more aware of their viewpoint than Gods.
There are and will be exceptions to the above, but they usually stand out as 'proving the rule' as the saying goes.
As to the supposed 'scriptural positions', ummmmm, unless we are willing to say that the Word of God is verging on 'double minded' then I really don't think there can honestly be two conflicting standpoints that are equally valid.
Many times people like there to be more than one option because it gives them 'wriggle room' (a technical phrase there), read room to compromise.
God says that the road (singular) to Him is narrow, not roads (plural) and this would apply not only to salvation and the Gospel, but to His word in general.
If there were two equally valid, but different, options to the teachings in His word it can only lead to confusion.
There is ONE Saviour, ONE Gospel, ONE Bible, ONE comprehensive truth, ONE Salvation all leading to ONE Throne and ONE Eternity with the ONE.
It is people who create these so called 'different positions' and it is the Bible that is abused in the process.
As I said before, some splits are necessary and rightfully unavoidable, but many are down to people putting too much emphasis on ritual and form or personal standing (read EGO).
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